In Breaking A Monster Luke Meyer follows viral band Unlocking the Truth as they sign their first record contract and get sucked through the corporate music industry machine. Felix Hubble caught up with Luke Meyer ahead of the Sydney Film Festival to talk about making the documentary and his past work following conspiracy theorists.
How did you come into contact with Unlocking the Truth?
Before we made the feature we made a short film about the band, which took place before they had a manager and before they had any prospects of signing a record label. A producer had stumbled across them performing on the street, and asked me to make a short film about them. She connected me with them; she sent me some videos of them performing on the street, and we did a pre-interview over the phone with them to make sure that they weren’t just cute kids, and they were interesting and all that.
With the feature film was it a coincidence that you started following them right before they signed a record deal? Did they approach you to follow them again?
The short film was really popular – like a million people saw it the first month it was online – and my producing partner Tom Davis and me were approached several times with the idea of making a feature-length film following them from where the short left off to see if they make it, one of those sorts of stories. It was never all that interesting to us because it was a will they or won’t they make it kind of story… it’s not that it wasn’t that interesting, that’s sort of the wrong thing to say, it was still about them dreaming about being stars, which is sort of what we already said in the short film. Some months had passed, and they started booking some of these larger shows, and they did get Alan Sacks as a manager,1 in the time that we hadn’t seen them. He lined them up with the contact at Sony and started putting together a dream package of what he wanted them to do. Part of that was a sort-of promotional documentary covering their first year of being a breakout band, and when he started putting that idea together the band and the family asked that he talk to the team that made the short film, so he came back to us and talked to us about it. Once we were back in conversation with the band we could see how different everything was since the last time that we talked to them; they were about to be on this crazy, you know, collision course… rapid introduction into the music industry, and that was a whole different story than what we had left them with, and suddenly it was interesting. We saw that there was interesting material to make into a feature film again. We just needed to make sure that we had creative independence from both the band and the record company…
Definitely, I was actually wondering about that. There seems like there’s a lot in Breaking A Monster that some people wouldn’t want the general public to see so I’m assuming you had final cut?
Yeah, the production company did.
Excellent – so no interference at all from anyone apart from the production company then?
Yeah, and they were very aligned with us; it was a solid situation. It was mainly just making sure that we had independence from the band and the record label who might want to design it like more of a marketing tool.
What was interesting to me while I was watching Breaking A Monster was that at times Alan Sacks kind of came of as this dastardly, Saturday cartoon villain. Was this an intentional thing in the cutting room or did it just sort of emerge from his personality?
Um… he’s a… really fascinating person, because he can be incredibly warm, and caring, for everyone really, for the band and you can get that kind of feeling when you interact with him, but he’s also an industry veteran who knows how to find an opportunity and exploit it, and he’s also someone who is just… like… such a… I mean I would never call him a villain like you were saying, but he makes people really wonder what he is up to… he really does put a lot of question in people’s minds. I think part of that, or at least a question I get in a lot of Q&As is “is the band being exploited?”, and I think that’s a question you get when you try to think of the relationship between Alan and the band… What’s going on there is that he’s trying to make them be the most that they can be in a lot of ways. He’s also trying to make a lot of money, by them being successful…
I guess it’s in his best interests for them to be successful so he’s paid as well…
Yeah, so I think when you boil it down, you can think about any entertainment act, whether they be an actor, or musical performer, or anything like that, anyone who’s being pushed forward by anyone else: by a team of people, by a manager, by an agent or anyone like that is being exploited – that’s how that works. You don’t get to play big stadium shows, you don’t get to have an album out there that’s being heavily promoted, you don’t get any of that stuff unless someone has found a way to make money out of you, and if they’re doing that they’re exploiting you. All the stars we know have been through some version of the story that the band has been through in this film.
I’m wondering as well, what’s your musical background? I felt like you as a filmmaker seemed to have extensive knowledge of the metal scene and community, probably even beyond that of the record labels or Sacks himself. Am I reading too much into that?
I like that you’re getting that impression but it’s definitely not that strong. I’m not a musician; I grew up being very into music, different genres, never got too exclusively deep into metal – although I do like it. I actually feel like it’s not so much as a musician that I had a lot of insight into what they were going through, it’s more that I work in a parallel creative business that functions, in some ways, similarly. I think that’s where I could see some things where I would suspect what was about to happen; what opportunities they might get, what they might require of them and that kind of stuff. I conferred with some friends who were musicians to see if they had any kind of insight as I was beginning this, the sort of stuff that I might see… the music industry specific paths that I might see on their journey…
Were there any points of intervention during the project for you – maybe a discussion with Sacks or the parents of the boys throughout the production process? Or did you stay firmly in the background?
No, I didn’t intervene. It’s one of those situation, you know it’s the first time I’ve been in a situation where I’m filming with children… I am being entrusted as an Adult in the times where I am shooting just with them, so there are moments where if they were to be in danger I would have been the responsible adult even though I’m just here to shoot them as if they were just doing what they do. So there’s that kind of intervention – although I was always watching out for them, like “do I need to keep them from doing something dangerous?” or anything, but I never found myself in a sticky situation with that. I was thinking about that a lot because I have kids and they were other people’s kids, and there are obvious responsibility issues, but I think you’re asking more about career choices, life choices and that kind of stuff…
Yeah, although both are interesting…
On that level, I didn’t really… Actually, it’s funny; the very last scene of the film is the music video shoot, and I knew that it was the last scene because when we shot it, we’d been waiting to film it for a couple of weeks. We already had a lot of the film put together and I knew that was the last thing once we had that done…
That’s like the conclusion of the arc really…
Yeah, and I knew we didn’t need to shoot anymore once that day was done, so once we put the cameras away… they had been talking about some opportunities that they had in front of them that I thought were really questionable, and as soon as I knew we were done shooting I weighed in, and told them that I thought it was not a good idea. They didn’t end up doing it anyway, I’m not sure if I effected the situation or not, but it was the first time that I did that because I felt like the band wanted, and still do want, a lot of the things that Alan is trying to get for them and it wasn’t my place – the way I was invited into the situation to document it – to also judge it. Who’s to say that if Alan’s plan all worked out, maybe that’s exactly what the band wanted, and then I’m just interloping in the situation. Now we talk about what they’re up to more and I give them more feedback. There’s another documentary-based reason not to get involved there; if I want to be able to be in a room with them, and have them feel safe to just talk about what they are thinking about and going through, they can’t feel like I’m judging them or they’ll start presenting their feelings and actions in a guarded way. It almost becomes like therapy; they might start doing things or presenting things for my benefit if they get the sense that I judge them and have an opinion that I want to impress, so I have to kind of remove myself from that.
I think you did that pretty effectively – I noticed a fair few points where what you would capture wouldn’t be necessarily what they would say in an interview (for instance) that would also be in the film… you’d captured the reality of a situation as opposed to the marketing or the spin of the situation, which was interesting. Another question I had, although you’ve kind of already answered it, was if it was intentional to insert yourself into the situations without interfering because one thing I really did notice is that while your voice was clearly hidden under the surface of the film, your physical presence isn’t necessarily there unless the boys are conversing with you directly…
Yeah, many people who work in Verite or direct cinema documentary believe that there’s a way to achieve presenceless-ness, where you can find the truth of a moment and not affect the situation. I don’t really believe that; I think the camera completely… we live in a world where there are cameras everywhere and as soon as we notice it, it does change us, we become a little bit aware of it. Even to very slight and minor degrees we perform for the camera. As much as I did my best to make it feel like you’re there without the presence of a camera factoring into it, that’s a feeling, it’s not really a reality. I think these guys are very affected by the camera being there.
So just on your previous film New World Order briefly…
I didn’t realise you were going to get into New World Order…
Yeah, I watched it the other night and was just taken aback by it because I remember in High School watching The Obama Deception… in a sort of tongue-in-cheek way because it looked really amusing to me, and to see all of this stuff I’d seen five years ago in Alex Jones’s film reappearing in your film… the same moments shot sort-of behind the scenes was eerie for me…
(laughs) …before we switch tracks to New World Order, one more thing I want to say about Breaking A Monster is that I always like to talk a little bit more about how there’s a timing thing to the film too, which I didn’t quite know I would be able to hit as squarely as I did. I feel like the film is able to show the strange place that the record industry is at right now; you see it with all the various companies and positions and A&R professionals that are in the film, who have these time-tested ways about how to put out a band, and they don’t make as much sense as they used to anymore. We’re in the YouTube age of stardom – even right now, this band exists in the pop-consciousness without having put out any music just from starting out on YouTube and doing other appearances after that. This is a new reality; this is not how you used to put out a band. You used to put out a record, and tour, and do appearances… There’s a formula for it that’s really just been completely turned on its head and I think that the industry as a whole is trying to figure out how to navigate a world that is essentially new to them, even though they’re the professionals. I think you get to see a little of that in this film…
For sure, I mean it’s very telling that the band doesn’t even have any music out still. The documentaries come out, I assume it’s been finished for six months or something at least…
At this point, yeah…
…and they’re still talking about the first EP when you look them up, which is kind of fascinating. And yet, they’re still touring and I assume making some money…
Yeah, the main thing they’re doing is shows, and they also just put a book out too which is another… it’s like an extended interview with the guys, so they’re doing shows but also doing some promotion for that book right now, because they can’t promote the album because it’s not released.
Of course. I’ll go quickly through the New World Order stuff, I’m sure you’ve talked about it no end years ago… Obviously when I read about the film I was a bit sceptical, I thought it may be another conspiracy theory documentary itself, but instead it seemed to be more an exploration of conspiracy theorists and their lives. I feel like it would have been really easy to deride them or write off their beliefs, but instead I found myself really sympathising with them. Is there something which drew you to that project specifically?
That project is another film produced by Tom Davis and it’s very much an idea that began with him. He had a lot of interest in that world and was able to show me and Andrew Neel, who I co-directed the film with, the people that he had come across in his years of interest. We saw a lot of people who were strong characters, who were very driven by they were doing; that film was kind of designed around being this exploration into what it takes to adopt an idea, and what it means to have an idea take such a strong hold on you that you have to go out into the world and do something about it. With all the people who were featured in that film, we try to figure out what might be one of the events that really sparked this skeptical belief about the world that they were being presented with.
You definitely got at least two of them in there, there’s all of the stuff about the Bilderberg Group meeting up and then there’s obviously the anniversary of September 11 at the end…
Yeah, and the whole thing begins with JFK… and then there’s Seth who starts to wonder if there’s a bigger conspiracy going on with Hurricane Katrina, and there’s all these little things… there’s also Ruby Ridge too… and all those things, they are real events that happened and the people in the film drew different meanings out of them.
Definitely…now this might be a stupid question given the nature of these sorts of people but did any of them try to exercise any level of control over your film?
No.
(laughs) Didn’t think so…
Do you mean in the edit or…
Yeah, but also while shooting the film. Maybe a throwaway comment like “don’t include this” or something like that…
I think, in the same way that happens all the time when you’re filming people… when you might be dealing with some areas that they’re fine talking about and some areas that they’re not… I think the stuff that they were uncomfortable talking about they just kind of steered things away from it by and large. I mean, we asked a lot of questions that explored a lot of areas that I don’t think they would have necessarily offered up, but… yeah, making documentaries with your subjects is a balance of trust and access and all of that. The subject always has some control over that by what they’re willing to talk about.
There was a scene in New World Order where a fire alarm goes off that was also in Alex Jones’s film The Obama Deception, that had footage that seemed quite similar going off my shaky memory of his film. Did you guys share any footage or crew as you were both making documentaries at the same time, or were they two completely separate productions?
He gave us some footage… We never gave him any footage… I’m just trying to remember it because I didn’t shoot that, Andrew shot that scene at the hotel, so I’m trying to remember what I know about all that… I do remember there wasn’t any footage swapping.
Having seen two of your films, I feel that neither have gone down the paths that I would have necessarily expected, maybe because of their synopses or just through what I imagined they might be. I mean one seems like it will be a documentary about a band and the other about NWO conspiracy theories, but instead they’re a documentary about the modern music industry machine using one band as a case study and the other is a look at the personal lives of people that hold fringe views. Do you seek out the stories where you think something else might be in play, or is this just an unintentional by-product of placing yourself with these people for long periods of time?
I think it happens two ways at once. The best stories are stories that exist on a very specific and personal level but also tell a story that is universal and is about bigger issues. Finding a way for those personal stories to be a way to channel these bigger questions and bigger issues, that’s what I think I’m always trying to do with my films. So when I say I think it happens two ways at once, I think sometimes I’m looking for a project that will allow me to talk about a certain topic. Although, at the same time, when I come across an opportunity to make a film about someone or something specifically, spending time with that reveals to me what is universal about that experience, so those two things kind of meet over and over again. I was going to say they meet somewhere in the middle of documentary filmmaking but really that’s not the best way of describing it, because it will happen on repeated shoot days, and it will happen in the edit room… If you’re on the right track you have these constant moments that let you know… the experience lets you know, the footage lets you know, the edit lets you know that you are telling something that is going to be relatable to a lot of people and yet isn’t so broad that it doesn’t lose the sense that it is that very specific story with those very specific people on screen.
Do you think you will reunite with Unlocking the Truth in the future, having worked with them twice before?
We’ve talked about it. I think if we do it will be after a few years, it won’t be picking up with them again next year. They’re in 8th grade now; maybe we’ll do something when they’re finishing high school or something. It’s all possible but we don’t know yet.
Thanks for your time.
Breaking A Monster screened as part of this year’s Sydney Film Festival after playing at SXSW and HotDocs – the short which inspired it can be accessed on The Avant/Garde Diaries’s Vimeo page. New World Order is also available to watch on SeeThink Films’s Vimeo page.